I have come to the conclusion that the appearance of so much heat concerning reasons to exclude Mormons as Christians is overstated and the work of a very small group within the Stream. Even then they are reluctant to speak openly about their reasons. Where there is obviously little significance or interest I will no longer post.

The issue may be mute and strongly influenced by America's embrace of Romney as a strong Presidential candidate. Aloha. To the black sand beaches.

(Guest Writer, Gecko -Stealtharachnid-, my husband contributes)

In attempting to conform to the orthodox "standard" of Christian faith, it has been noted by my wife here, without challenge, that such a standard does not exist. Nevertheless, the Mormons are rejected for pieces of standards that "Christians" assert are common to all true "Christians". The truest of the true did not explicitly write of Trinity as evolved. It was created in councils of men beginning in the fourth century. The creeds of these councils reinterpreted scripture in order to put down dissent. In many cases, correct or not, they had the power of law.

In fact, today's evolution of the relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost takes many forms. Many of these definitions of God are embraced under the tent of Protestant Christianity even though some were deemed heretical at the time of the councils. As is the case for all Protestant doctrines, the most popular in our time are seen as being the most correct.....

Although Protestant and Catholic Christians use the doctrine of the Trinity as a show of their solidarity, this is largely myth. The trinity Christologies of our day are so diverse that they most often define the differences of Christians. They most often define the divisions.

There are many nuances of the relationship of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost within extensively growing Christologies. They fall into broad camps: Binitarianism, Unitarianism, the Godhead (Latter Day Saints), Arianism, and Modalism. There is also the modern christology speaking of God as "a source of love, not as father, and the Spirit [that] promotes sharing within community". Some orthodox feminist theologians refer to the persons of the Holy Trinity with gender-neutral language, redefining the Trinity to be three roles in salvation or relationships with us, not eternal identities or relationships with each other. Most Trinitiarians reject this formulation, yet it is not rejected as Christian where it is an expanding phenomena within so many orthodox Christian churches. This should alert the believer today to the ever corrupting influences of wolves in sheeps clothing, for we now see more than ever this ugliness in leadership.

Justification for fifth century councils creating definitions of who God is require a certain departure from the reasonable. It is supposed that the Apostles were absolutely unable to compose the current orthodox Trinity doctrine because of persecution. Fuurther we are to believe the Ante-Nicene Fathers gave little evidence of today's specifics of Trinitarian theology. Yet, somehow, all the inspired scripyur of that time contains all the truth necessary. Do you feel the cold contradiction? However, time for writing became available with the rise of the Roman Emperor, the pagan, Constantine. True also, time was also available to those under house arrest and writings lost. Life was denied to others.

As for what the LDS know about God. There is one God embodied in three personages, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father and Son each have a body of flesh and bone. The Holy Ghost is manifest in the Spirit without body. The Son is coeternal with the Father. Each are of one mind, one purpose, that being "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." The Bible implies this no less than it implies the God of the Trinity. Yet, God when seen throughout scripture has never defined Himself as without body, or as spirit alone.

In Summary:

The Orthodox Trinitarian doctrine does not follow the strict monotheism found in Judaism and the Old Testament, of which Jesus claimed to have fulfilled.

It is the invention of not so early Christian church fathers. It is a paradox and therefore unreasonable.

It reflects the influence of pagan religions found in the culture of Constantine.

The doctrine has been widely seen as contradicting the Holy Scriptures where Jesus states that the Father is greater than he is. Paul stated "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."

The doctrine depends almost entirely on non-Biblical terminology. Some notable examples include: Trinity, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost, Three-in-one.

Scriptural support for the doctrine is only claimed to be implicit.

Lets suppose for a time that the Mormons were to take seriously the demand that they conform to every particular in "Christian" doctrine. Suppose The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints then, in good faith, made the attempt to do so.

Having complied with the demand, would the Latter Day Saints find themselves in total agreement with the Protestants or the Catholics?

Would they believe in Apostolic succession or in the priesthood of all believers?

Would they recognize an Archbishop, a patriarch, a pope, a monarch, or no one at all as the head of Christ's church here on Earth?

Would they be saved by grace alone, or would they find the sacraments of the church necessary for baptism?



Would they believe in free will or in predestination?

Would they practice water baptism? If so, would it be by immersion, sprinkling, or some other method?

Would they believe in a substitionary, representative, or exemplary atonement?

Would they or would they not believe in original sin? And on and on.

It is unreasonable for other Chrisitans to demand that Latter Day Saints conform to a single standard of "Christian" doctrine when they do not agree among themselves upon exactly what that standard is.

The doctrinal rejection has been used most often to discredit the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in demanding we are not Christian. The many forms of this argument melt down to a simple logical argument: Since the Latter Day Saints do not believe what other Christians believe, they must not be Christian. The presumption on the anti-Mormoms part is that all other Christians believe "what Christians believe." No two denominations and perhaps no two people believe on every detail of Christian faith. Futher, most denominations don't even believe on which doctrines are central and must be affirmed by all Christians. Doctrinal diversity is a fact of life among the diversity of Christian church.


Show us a single monolithic volume of doctrine common to all of you so that we may be judged to be in or out of your Christian company. An evaluation of Mormon faith reveals Christian faith no more unique than what is found in their present company. Where anti-Mormons cannot produce a volume common and satisfactory to all, this provides just another reason why Mormons are Christians.

A Final Summary for this topic:

It is true that the Latter Day Saints have an expanded canon of scripture. But the Christian canon of scripture was not closed either by biblical or apostolic declaration, nor were its contents fixed or agreed upon in the apostolic period. The perception that the canon was closed grew up in later periods. No single canon of scripture, or even of the New Testament books has ever been agreed upon by all Christian denominations. When church level reveleation ceased after the death of the Apostles (the revelation authorized to define Christian church wide doctrines), the church was forced to draw one of two conclusions:

1. Revelation ceased because God had said everything He wanted to say, and the church didn't need any more revelation; or

2. Revelation ceased because there were no more Apostles and prophets to recieve it, and the church was lacking one of its necessary components.

Traditional Christians accept the former, Latter Day Christians (Saints) accept the latter.

News Item: The Bible as we know it in the modern period is a product of the Christian church, rather than the other way around.

Since it is clear that there were Christians before the New Testament was written, it cannot be maintained that the Bible is what makes one a Christian.

Latter Day Saints reject this and all other enthusiastic claims ABOUT the Bible that cannot be found in the Bible.

If the modern churches can strongly disagree among themselves as to what the canon of Christian scripture is, and yet continue to accept each other (be reasonably tolerant of each other), then it is logically inconsistent and seriously unfair to deny the Mormons the same privilege..............unless of course there is someone in Blogstream that has some novel anti-Mormon ideas.


For the most part, I have been overjoyed at the real tolerance and love witnessed here by people of broad religions backgrounds. It has been heartwarming. Thank you for your support.

(The tumbling house photo was taken by my husband, Gecko in eastern Colorado when we lived there. My metaphor for the subject at hand, it sits alone without maintenance buffeted by the prairie winds, the summer heat and the winter snow drifts. Over time it has been left to the elements without care. No improvements brings us to a point where the past takes on a brighter glow than the present.)