Modern Christian Protestantism and Catholicism certainly see themselves as properly consisting of the events and doctrines found in the New Testament. They also see themselves as equally disposed to historical, theological, and traditional developments of the many centuries that followed. Typical some theological rejection of Mormons as Christians has been the assertion that we do not share the history or theology or traditions of “real” Christians. Because we do not share the pedigree found in traveling through the Protestant Reformation and all those councils of bishops. In this assertion they must likewise admit that biblical revelation is inadequate in standing alone in defining “Christianity”. Additionally, those arguing this point must likewise recognize that this has absolutely nothing to do with a belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and God.
So many of you who reject us as Christians have been reluctant to share your remarks here. If you find yourself in “Camp Rejection”, I ask the following (should you wish to contribute):
Do you personally believe that Jesus Christ was the literal Son of God, that he had no mortal father?
Do you believe in the divinity of the historical Jesus?
Do you believe that Jesus had the power to perform miracles?
Do you believe that he took upon himself the sins of the world in some literal way, as a real transfer of real guilt?
Do you believe in some literal way Jesus died for us?
Do you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus?
Do you believe in a final judgment for all?
Do you believe in an afterlife at all?
Are you a Christian?
(I remain hopeful that you do share your convictions here, appropriately.)
I suspect that you would make the same claim. However, please be honest in your next group of questions. The truth is not in what your questions contain, but rather in what they omit.
Yes, Jesus IS the Son of an immortal God – we all agree.
Your NEXT question should have been, “Do you believe that God, (Jesus’ Father) was once a mortal man in another world who progressed to become the God of this world.”
You would have to say, “YES” – a Christian would say an emphatic NO.
Christians believe in one God. “…before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)
My most immediate concern is IF we are going to have a give-and-take on this. I suspect we are not. You have neither a profile nor a blog and by all appearances, you hit and ran as opposed to begin a give-and-take.
So please let me know if you are still out there.
As for the point you raised, it is not Mormon doctrine. Where it is not our doctrine, there is no compelling reason where I MUST believe it as you suppose. In fact, I do not believe it. The point you raise runs completely counter to our doctrines.
But in affirming that "Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God", I don't think you have considered the implications concerning that position considering you believe in God with a singular essence. If you are there, can you follow me?
Nevertheless, I Must believe it or probably be a liar, Right?
As for give and take; you asked a question, I answered, and from that you assumed that was the end of my input. Why?
Remember, you have all the power here. It’s your blog. You may allow my posts and comments to stand, or you may remove them. It appeared from your questions that you sincerely wanted to engage in a discussion, and I responded to that in a sincere and hopefully, a respectful way.
I didn't call you a liar. You happened to ask a number of questions and I picked the first and answered from my heart. Sorry if you didn't like my answer.
As for my point running “counter” to your doctrines, I find that hard to believe.
The Doctrine and Covenants (132:19-22) clearly states this point.
Joseph Smith went on to explain: "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. ...I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea…”
“He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did...”
“...you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves…”
If this is not what you believe in terms of the afterlife/celestial kingdom, then what DO you believe?
Take care.
It is a reality that in the great majority of cases, those who remain absolutely anonymous in not writing a profile and not identifying a blog do it for a reason of concealment.
I will remark further when time allows. Busy.
I cannot possibly tell you all I believe about God and what our doctrines confirm about him. Let it be said that God does not grow. God does change in his creation that is ongoing. Galaxies, stars and planets continue to be created by him. But he has nothing new to learn. This does not keep him from creating something completely new....as any time.
So please refrain from telling me what I believe and in my denial, what I must believe. I am an absolute expert in telling you what I believe. It was just a few weeks ago that I composed a post enlightening readers on this startling point.
Your D&C scripture has nothing to do with God or who he was, or as you suppose we believe about his characteristics.
Our first article of faith reads, "We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." This is also what Joseph Smith crafted. note the words Eternal Father.
Now, you have taken us far afield from my post.
-----------------------------------------------------------
As for the answers to the questions, are you sure you agree with all of them? You see, there is many a Protestant who does not firmly agree with any of them and is likely to disagree with most of them.
I was, however writing about what the LDS Church believes. You may or may not agree with them, and that is your right. Rather than make this personal then, could you tell me why I am wrong. I quoted factual information, and if I have misunderstood it I am open to your explanation.
You wrote: “The quote you provide by Joseph Smith (150 years ago) is an aboration[sic.]. There are no Mormon doctrines related to it.”
But in my post I quoted the doctrine: (The Doctrine and Covenants (132:19-22))
I then quoted Joseph Smith’s words but if you prefer, there are many other LDS leaders have made reference to this.
Modern Apostle and Church President Joseph Fielding Smith said, “…SONS OF GOD BECOME GODS.” and “The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.”
-Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2
…and Brigham Young: “"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain,"
-Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13
The following was written by Stephen E. Robinson, PhD and well known LIVING “Mormon scholar”. The excerpt is published by BYU Studies and you can check the link at:
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/emmain.asp?number=91
“The important points of the doctrine for Latter-day Saints are that Gods and humans are the same species of being, but at different stages of development in a divine continuum, and that the heavenly Father and Mother are the heavenly pattern, model, and example of what mortals can become through obedience to the gospel (see Mother in Heaven). Knowing that they are the literal offspring of Heavenly Parents and that they can become like those parents through the gospel of Jesus Christ is a wellspring of religious motivation. With God as the literal Father and with humans having the capacity to become like him, the basic religious questions "Where did I come from?," "Why am I here?," and What is my destiny?" are fundamentally answered.”
I have been sincere in my efforts to present my response in a complete and hopefully structured way, and I apologize for the length of the post.
What I disagree with is your distortion. Distortion is what anti-Mormons do.
The men you quote are talking about exaltation. Exaltation requires a certain level of faithful action on the part of the believer. We will each attain a kingdom of God upon resurrection whether exalted or not. We define that where others are vague.
Don't confuse that with the Eternal Father and His Son and the Holy Spirit. They have been eternal where we have not been. They are without beginning. We had a beginning created by God as Spirits.
The Gentlemen you quote are not talking about God. They are talking about god (as I like to put it). "gods there are many", you know.
But it has been my experience that without sufficient foundation to one's faith this information is meat that most are unable to chew.
After all Paul, in what is now called the Bible, admitted that he could not speak some doctrine that he knew to be true because man was not ready to hear it.
So, I hope the best for you in your understanding.
Well, actually I can't answer that question. You see the term 'Christian' was given to followers of The Way (one of St. Luke's descriptive titles for the disciples or followers of Jesus in the Book of Acts) by their detractors or enemies. The word, 'Christian' in Greek means, 'Christ ones' or those like Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament did a disciple or follower of Jesus ever claim the appelation, 'Christian'. For example, St. Paul never said, "I am a Christian". He did say he was a servant of Christ.
So the persons who are best qualified to tell me I am a Christian is those who look at my life and tell me that my life looks like one who follows the Nazarene (another title given to Jesus in the NT).
So am I a Christian? I don't know - ask my family, my co-workers, my neighbors.
ron